So in other words make sure to verify specs of a motherboard if you want to keep it a while and upgrade. Chipset alone does not tell the whole picture.
This makes the most sense to me. And I believe the "b" stands for "basic." Of course, there are certain limitations that UEFI solves as well, but I'm sure those can be done in text interface too. No need for all this flashy, space-wasting, junk.
I like this idea of having striped 128 Mb BIOS chips. It's like RAID0 for the BIOS so I can view configuration data twice as fast! The next thing we need is like a RAID5 BIOS array and some RGB lighting on the BIOS chips to highlight the p-p-p-poooooweeeerrr of all that added performance.
Seriously though, it makes sense to drop Bristol Ridge over swapping out to 256 Mb BIOS chips though with the way the BIOS is growing, I wouldn't be surprised that the larger capacity chip is an eventual necessity anyway.
+1 to the idea of yellow text on a blue background already floated in earlier comments.
If the only thing which prevents you from BIOS overflow is that table entry for the older chip, the BIOS might not take the next big update (like for the security flaws etc).
They were just adding BIOS support for the Ryzen APUs and now they are taking it away? Geez. When you buy a motherboard, you need to be able to know with certainty which CPUs you can put in it, and which will still work if you do a BIOS update 5 years from now. I've seen Newegg puts tags on motherboards that supposedly support Ryzen APUs out of the box. This is because you may see a motherboard supports Ryzen 5 2400G, but when you build your computer, it doesn't work since the BIOS doesn't support it. The retailer and manufacturer need to do something a little different here.
5 years might be a stretch. One can be happy AMD actually follows this road, because on Intel it's rather uncommon to update to the next generation without throwing out the board.
For bios updates, well manufactures could stop being so cheap and add the USB update option that more expensive boards have. Doesn't even need a CPU installed at all.
And for support, well we are talking about the ultra low end in price when a few bucks more make a difference. If I learned anything with going with AMD then it's not to buy the cheapest board available anyway. Doesn't need to be expensive but not dirt cheap.
While I agree a simpler build bios would be an obvious choice for saving space, I do wonder if those cheap boards come with flashy bios at all.
Thank god I didn't need to touch one since I left my student years behind.
"because on Intel it's rather uncommon to update to the next generation without throwing out the board."
For the last decade, Intel has stuck to 'two gens per socket change' for their consumer Socket Hx line. If you buy the second gen on a socket and think "but things will be totally different this time for no reason!" there's not much anyone can do to help you.
In fact, it is common for them to keep the socket for the 2nd gen but not support the 2nd gen on the 1st gen mobos anyway. Voltages, power, memory speed... something is always wrong.
Exactly, what the actual flark. This is insane! I'm sure if everyone switches, the price will be comparable before you know it. If it isn't, sounds like they need a new player to undercut the current crop.
Anyway I like some of the features of the modern UEFI BIOS, but I don't need the fancy visuals. Honestly you could even rip out the "basic" mode and just reorganize the "advanced" mode a bit. Leave basic mode to the locked-down OEM UEFIs.
I also agree with retaining the blue background UEFI like the old BIOS, frankly it is the same in the end, just direction keys guided menus! I have a couple of systems with such UEFI environments and it is fine, but my newer desktops are all 1990s WinAmp-skin-like. They can have a Windows app for that.
Now that we are at it, the same for the motherboards! Why they have to be so flashy? I had to buy the Ultra Durable series from Gigabyte, I don't want to pay the $5-$25 extra all those LEDs and plastics thingies, but the enthusiast grade hardware with top components is all like that nowadays, just lights and game-ish.
Please editors and reporters from Anandtech, when you go to expos, share this feeling with the manufacturers, there are adults among the PC DIY community that would like to have top grade hardware with plain aesthetics. Not all the builders are gamers/teenagers.
I agree with your sentiment but that's the thing, the LED-loaded gear outsells the plain stuff. They go where the money is. I again agree that some of that is slanted statistics due to the higher-end kit coming with LEDs and visual flair, so anyone buying top-end components is accidentally feeding the trend.
But enough users and integrators are buying the blinged out gear that this trend is not likely to reverse. The crystal looking RAM G.Skill is releasing is a great example. I just continue to avoid LED bling as much as possible, but like you I'll buy it when it's the best option. If it allows you to disable the lighting, I do so. Don't get me wrong, I think this stuff looks neat, but it's not for me - I try to even avoid clear side panels.
Intel motherboard vendors may have larger chips by default. Intel does look consistent in number of processors per socket of over 100. Certainly I seem to recall 32MB bios chips being selling points if intel motherboards. That might be more commonplace than on AMD boards.
All UEFI sold nowadays are extremely bloated. If they can run on their own without CPU to download BIOS update of your choice by selecting CPU range, that could solve it...
My BIOS on dirt cheap intel can get update via WiFi and Lan. Yes, I'm also happy to switch back to text interface of saving bloat helps.
Expect my next CPU to be AMD. Intel seems to be very buggy these days.
From all of these comments, the ones that complain that UEFI is bloated have completely missed the true positives to the overall design. No more need to boot to DOS to flash the BIOS, and you don't have issues with add-in cards needing a special BIOS menu that you need to go into from a different interface(ALT-I, ALT-A, or other RAID controllers). UEFI integrates the controls for add-in controllers into the menu structure in UEFI, along with the ability to flash the firmware for those cards as well.
I agree that there can be a lot of garbage that takes space, but when you ignore the increase in functionality, you also miss how much easier it makes things in an advanced setup.
Now, those who are worried about support for Bristol Ridge getting removed from low end boards, how many people with those low end machines actually upgrade the BIOS anyway, unless there is a serious problem(RAM compatibility)? Upgrade to a better APU if you need integrated graphics, and problem solved when it comes to compatibility.
You don't buy a high end motherboard to use a low end chip, and a low end board is going to restrict what you can do with a high end processor.
"No more need to boot to DOS to flash the BIOS, and you don't have issues with add-in cards needing a special BIOS menu that you need to go into from a different interface(ALT-I, ALT-A, or other RAID controllers). UEFI integrates the controls for add-in controllers into the menu structure in UEFI, along with the ability to flash the firmware for those cards as well."
And none of that has anything to do with GUI.
GUI does not need to take a lot of space too, 25 years ago it took about 20kB to have a GUI.
Why BIOS is still a motherboard manufacturer's headache and not in the CPU or chipset?Why BIOS is still a motherboard manufacturer's headache and not in the CPU or chipset?
Everyone is talking about the CPU support / micro-code tables, but what about the DDR4 DRAM support tables? Pretty-much everyone who has been on the AM4 platform since the beginning, has seen the DRAM support improve markedly. Whether this is due to AGESA updates to the memory controller, or the "DRAM support tables" that I've heard about, I don't know for certain. But modern AM4 UEFI BIOSes DO CONTAIN "DRAM support tables", and the more variants of brand/model/DRAM configuration they support, the more room in the BIOS EEPROM they take up. The size of this is mostly only growing. Could this desire to properly support the most DRAM variety on the market, be what is pushing out the processor support tables?
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32 Comments
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Marlin1975 - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
So in other words make sure to verify specs of a motherboard if you want to keep it a while and upgrade.Chipset alone does not tell the whole picture.
29a - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
I would be fine if BIOSs went back to the blue background with yellow text to save space.darckhart - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
This makes the most sense to me. And I believe the "b" stands for "basic." Of course, there are certain limitations that UEFI solves as well, but I'm sure those can be done in text interface too. No need for all this flashy, space-wasting, junk.vanilla_gorilla - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
"updating sockets and chipsets more frequency "I think you mean frequently, not frequency.
PeachNCream - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
I like this idea of having striped 128 Mb BIOS chips. It's like RAID0 for the BIOS so I can view configuration data twice as fast! The next thing we need is like a RAID5 BIOS array and some RGB lighting on the BIOS chips to highlight the p-p-p-poooooweeeerrr of all that added performance.Seriously though, it makes sense to drop Bristol Ridge over swapping out to 256 Mb BIOS chips though with the way the BIOS is growing, I wouldn't be surprised that the larger capacity chip is an eventual necessity anyway.
+1 to the idea of yellow text on a blue background already floated in earlier comments.
0ldman79 - Sunday, June 17, 2018 - link
Striped BIOS to halve your POST times... lolpeevee - Monday, June 18, 2018 - link
If the only thing which prevents you from BIOS overflow is that table entry for the older chip, the BIOS might not take the next big update (like for the security flaws etc).mikato - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
They were just adding BIOS support for the Ryzen APUs and now they are taking it away? Geez. When you buy a motherboard, you need to be able to know with certainty which CPUs you can put in it, and which will still work if you do a BIOS update 5 years from now. I've seen Newegg puts tags on motherboards that supposedly support Ryzen APUs out of the box. This is because you may see a motherboard supports Ryzen 5 2400G, but when you build your computer, it doesn't work since the BIOS doesn't support it. The retailer and manufacturer need to do something a little different here.Peter2k - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
5 years might be a stretch.One can be happy AMD actually follows this road, because on Intel it's rather uncommon to update to the next generation without throwing out the board.
For bios updates, well manufactures could stop being so cheap and add the USB update option that more expensive boards have.
Doesn't even need a CPU installed at all.
And for support, well we are talking about the ultra low end in price when a few bucks more make a difference.
If I learned anything with going with AMD then it's not to buy the cheapest board available anyway.
Doesn't need to be expensive but not dirt cheap.
While I agree a simpler build bios would be an obvious choice for saving space, I do wonder if those cheap boards come with flashy bios at all.
Thank god I didn't need to touch one since I left my student years behind.
edzieba - Saturday, June 16, 2018 - link
"because on Intel it's rather uncommon to update to the next generation without throwing out the board."For the last decade, Intel has stuck to 'two gens per socket change' for their consumer Socket Hx line. If you buy the second gen on a socket and think "but things will be totally different this time for no reason!" there's not much anyone can do to help you.
peevee - Monday, June 18, 2018 - link
In fact, it is common for them to keep the socket for the 2nd gen but not support the 2nd gen on the 1st gen mobos anyway. Voltages, power, memory speed... something is always wrong.Cooe - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
*facepalm* BRISTOL Ridge is not RAVEN Ridge. These are old, pre-Zen CPU's you dingus.Alexvrb - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
*double facepalm* That wouldn't even pass the sniff test, right Cooe?0ldman79 - Sunday, June 17, 2018 - link
Bristol Ridge is the FX based APU, not the Zen based APU.Jorgp2 - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
Why not just use a dual bios config with one having support for older CPUs?GreenReaper - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
Because then you don't have a dual setup (in the sense of one being a backup), but two singles.danwat1234 - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
How much does a 32MB BIOS chip cost? I's 2018..Alexvrb - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
Exactly, what the actual flark. This is insane! I'm sure if everyone switches, the price will be comparable before you know it. If it isn't, sounds like they need a new player to undercut the current crop.Anyway I like some of the features of the modern UEFI BIOS, but I don't need the fancy visuals. Honestly you could even rip out the "basic" mode and just reorganize the "advanced" mode a bit. Leave basic mode to the locked-down OEM UEFIs.
rozquilla - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
I also agree with retaining the blue background UEFI like the old BIOS, frankly it is the same in the end, just direction keys guided menus! I have a couple of systems with such UEFI environments and it is fine, but my newer desktops are all 1990s WinAmp-skin-like. They can have a Windows app for that.Now that we are at it, the same for the motherboards! Why they have to be so flashy? I had to buy the Ultra Durable series from Gigabyte, I don't want to pay the $5-$25 extra all those LEDs and plastics thingies, but the enthusiast grade hardware with top components is all like that nowadays, just lights and game-ish.
Please editors and reporters from Anandtech, when you go to expos, share this feeling with the manufacturers, there are adults among the PC DIY community that would like to have top grade hardware with plain aesthetics. Not all the builders are gamers/teenagers.
LordanSS - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
I second that motion.Alexvrb - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
I agree with your sentiment but that's the thing, the LED-loaded gear outsells the plain stuff. They go where the money is. I again agree that some of that is slanted statistics due to the higher-end kit coming with LEDs and visual flair, so anyone buying top-end components is accidentally feeding the trend.But enough users and integrators are buying the blinged out gear that this trend is not likely to reverse. The crystal looking RAM G.Skill is releasing is a great example. I just continue to avoid LED bling as much as possible, but like you I'll buy it when it's the best option. If it allows you to disable the lighting, I do so. Don't get me wrong, I think this stuff looks neat, but it's not for me - I try to even avoid clear side panels.
ipkh - Friday, June 15, 2018 - link
Intel motherboard vendors may have larger chips by default. Intel does look consistent in number of processors per socket of over 100. Certainly I seem to recall 32MB bios chips being selling points if intel motherboards. That might be more commonplace than on AMD boards.janolsen - Saturday, June 16, 2018 - link
All UEFI sold nowadays are extremely bloated. If they can run on their own without CPU to download BIOS update of your choice by selecting CPU range, that could solve it...My BIOS on dirt cheap intel can get update via WiFi and Lan. Yes, I'm also happy to switch back to text interface of saving bloat helps.
Expect my next CPU to be AMD. Intel seems to be very buggy these days.
Arnulf - Sunday, June 17, 2018 - link
Drop the worthless "GUI" crap from BIOS and you'll have room to spare!Targon - Monday, June 18, 2018 - link
From all of these comments, the ones that complain that UEFI is bloated have completely missed the true positives to the overall design. No more need to boot to DOS to flash the BIOS, and you don't have issues with add-in cards needing a special BIOS menu that you need to go into from a different interface(ALT-I, ALT-A, or other RAID controllers). UEFI integrates the controls for add-in controllers into the menu structure in UEFI, along with the ability to flash the firmware for those cards as well.I agree that there can be a lot of garbage that takes space, but when you ignore the increase in functionality, you also miss how much easier it makes things in an advanced setup.
Now, those who are worried about support for Bristol Ridge getting removed from low end boards, how many people with those low end machines actually upgrade the BIOS anyway, unless there is a serious problem(RAM compatibility)? Upgrade to a better APU if you need integrated graphics, and problem solved when it comes to compatibility.
You don't buy a high end motherboard to use a low end chip, and a low end board is going to restrict what you can do with a high end processor.
peevee - Monday, June 18, 2018 - link
"No more need to boot to DOS to flash the BIOS, and you don't have issues with add-in cards needing a special BIOS menu that you need to go into from a different interface(ALT-I, ALT-A, or other RAID controllers). UEFI integrates the controls for add-in controllers into the menu structure in UEFI, along with the ability to flash the firmware for those cards as well."And none of that has anything to do with GUI.
GUI does not need to take a lot of space too, 25 years ago it took about 20kB to have a GUI.
peevee - Monday, June 18, 2018 - link
Why BIOS is still a motherboard manufacturer's headache and not in the CPU or chipset?Why BIOS is still a motherboard manufacturer's headache and not in the CPU or chipset?peevee - Monday, June 18, 2018 - link
"At least two vendors told us that the price of these larger chips is more than double the 128 Mb chips."Let's see, 32_G_B flash card can be had for ~$10 now, so how much a chip with 1/1000 of the capacity could possibly cost? Should be 0.1 cents. :)
VirtualLarry - Wednesday, May 1, 2019 - link
Everyone is talking about the CPU support / micro-code tables, but what about the DDR4 DRAM support tables? Pretty-much everyone who has been on the AM4 platform since the beginning, has seen the DRAM support improve markedly. Whether this is due to AGESA updates to the memory controller, or the "DRAM support tables" that I've heard about, I don't know for certain. But modern AM4 UEFI BIOSes DO CONTAIN "DRAM support tables", and the more variants of brand/model/DRAM configuration they support, the more room in the BIOS EEPROM they take up.The size of this is mostly only growing. Could this desire to properly support the most DRAM variety on the market, be what is pushing out the processor support tables?